PN Tri Damper System

I have been hearing guys waiting for me to run this system and if I have any input on this Tri Damper System (TDS). Honestly I refused to test this product just because I know I'll have to mess around with those thick grease. Some of you are probably not familiar with those kyosho thick grease (5k, 15k, 30k). These grease are very popular for AWD drivers or ex-AWD drivers.  These grease are used for better dampening action. It is applied underneath or top of the knuckles and toe bars on an AWD cars. They work wonders but they're very sticky and annoying when you get it all over your hands, tools, pit mat, radio, etc... lol

04.01.2010 Part 1:
Installation:
You must have patient when doing this. You will spend 30-45 mins to put this together and have it to work properly. Then few hours of fine tuning but I'm not here to scare those drivers that spend most of their time on the track but if you want it to work, just like anything else, you'll have to put some time to it.

Few things to keep in mind when installing this system.
1. The side shocks spring adjuster (collar) should be mounted inside/center of the car not outside (refer to the pic below).
2. The part where the collar is, should be mounted on top. 

3. Make sure the bracket for the outside shock is even/level on both corners, left and right. Mine wasn't, so I had to shim it with 3x PN orange shim that sandwiches under the carbon fiber and L-arm of the motor pod:

4. Use softer type of T-bar. I would prefer the use of Fiber Glass rather than Carbon Fiber like the once I have below. The idea is to have the rear end to "float" and maximize the use of the center and side damper (TDS).

edit 4.3.2010: With the fiber glass t-bar, you now have to run stiffer center shocks spring. I don't want it stiff. I want the rear end to be able to absorb the bumps on the track. Using the SSG #3 T-bar with softest center shock, I was able to have a soft suspension to absorb the bumps and at the same time it is not too soft to where it sags when sitting still.  

The most difficult part of the installation is probably routing the motor wire to where it wont bind or limit the suspension. Make sure to router them properly.

Track Time:
I've only put my car on the track this afternoon for about half an hour so I'm not going to say that it is better than DDS or worse than the DDS. I will however, say few things about this time consuming product that PN had made. lol... Thank you for this great btw.  

My fastest lap with Damper Plate System (DDS) is 10.7 on a PN70 turn motor. I was hitting this time all day on Sunday and Monday. This afternoon, I put my car on the track with the new suspension and it was capable of hitting 11.0 fastest lap after 3 laps. I had to pull it off because I noticed that the rear end was hopping around the corners like it would on an AWD. Derrick and Eric at FPR had helped me with my settings since they know about 12th scale R/C (which they said is like this 2wd mini-z's) and had told me few things... I then replaced almost my entire rear end to something they think would work and wha-la! "10.7 fast lap please and I want it to go, oh btw, please also include traction roll with it, super sized!"  YES!!! I started to traction roll like there's no tomorrow! Just so you guys know, I have not seen traction roll for a few months because I've had my MR03 to work at its best. With the TDS, the car is very well capable of carrying more corner speed but at the same time you'll have to be very cautious with your throttle as it will traction roll on you. There are few things on why the car traction rolls and this part I haven't figured out. I mean, I have ideas why but let me figure this out first before posting it here.

After running almost two sets of battery pack, I hit 10.6 fast lap. Can you believe it? In less than 15 mins on the track I dropped 10th of a second faster than my DDS. When I was running the TDS this afternoon, I was hitting the 10.7 mark back to back. It was like, 10.7, 10.7, 10.7 10.8, 10.7 10.7,... it was that consistent! On my DDS, I can do 10.8, 10.8, 10.9, 10.7, 10.9, 10.8, 10.8, etc... It was consistent but it wasn't fast or as fast at least. I also noticed that the TDS was faster infield. My steering felt much faster. It could be because the car doesn't roll as much as how it use to with the DPS. This makes the car gets in and out the infield quicker and tighter! I like having my car to roll around the corners for more corner speed but with the TDS, the car almost doesnt roll around the corners. The car just turns when it wants to... Although, I was able to gain more steering and was dropping fast consistent laps, the rear hop didn't go away and this is my major concern. I need a car that is very forgiving especially during a race. A car that has this rear hop will prevent you from pushing the cars potential. This afternoon I will try to figure out the cause of hopping. Maybe I can eliminate the traction roll after fixing the hop. 

The real question is, will I replace my DDS on my cars and use TDS instead?
YES, I already did on all my cars!!! Ok, I'm just kidding.  I didn't. I'm still testing it and so far it's doing pretty good but it is early to say that this system is better. I need to relearn my car's set up because now, you can really fine tune the rear end and readjust the ride height.

Is it better than DDS?
The DDS I can drive for hours and hit the same fast laps here and there. Right now the TDS hits faster lap time than my DDS and its able to drop back to back fast times and just so you guys know, I was holding back on the car because it was on the edge of traction rolling, I couldn't push it! Is it better? I'll let you be the judge to that.  One thing I'd like to share from my testing results is that while I was running my car for about 12mins or so, the car started to act differently after 10 mins. It felt like the damper arm on my DDS came but when I checked it, everything was tight and there was still grease on the piston. What could that be? Good question because I don't know either  but I have a strong feeling that it had something to do with the grease on the piston.

Ok, I'll stop this here for now. This is just part 1 of my testing and there will be more updates coming for sure so stay tuned! Special Thanks to Derrick and Eric for helping me out on my current setup...

Oh btw, Please DO NOT COPY the set up just yet. I'm still working on it. I will post what works best.
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04.02.2010 Part 2:
Yesterday afternoon when I did my review, it was full of frustation due to the fact that I didn't have enought time to fine tune the new dampening system. Usually, when I bench test my car with its new setup, it'll work right away with just little adjustment here and there but it should work on the track, period. I forgot that this system is very new to me and the adjustability that you are now adding to your mini-z is now unlimited. Before, it was just T-bar and then oil. Really, these are the only things that I usually put on the car. Like at the RCX race, I changed my T-bar and then used a lighter oil.  Now, you have springs, pre-loaded or not, grease, t-bar, damper disc, DDS oil, thick or light or no oil, what springs od the dds, top dds only or both, etc... There's just so many that needed attention but once you figure out what you want your car to do, everything will pay off.

My first test was with the TDS only. I applied 5k grease on both side shock using dark blue springs and 15k grease in the center shock using orange spring. Keep in mind that I am still using my SSG #3 T-Bar. The car had a lot of steering that it was on the edge of traction rolling also, the rear end of the car breaks loose sometimes because it has this little hops in the rear. It's very noticeable when coming into a turn (initial turn-in). The harder you come in, the more the hop you get. I dont let off my throttle to neutral position. If I do, for sure the rear will lock up and it'll roll over. 95% of the time, I have my finger on the throttle no matter what class/motor i'm running. Over all, the car was working very well with the exception of that rear hop. I was still able to get to 10.7 fast lap but I know the car was on the edge.

That in mind, I went back to the pit and looked at my center shock. I started moving it back and forth and noticed that the middle section of the shock where it pivots side to side actually gets hung up about 1mm before it reaches the pivot area. Green arrow is the part that's getting hung up & Purple arrow is where the shock pivots.

This is because of the oil that I was using being too think. I took my center shock apart ane replaced my 15k grease with something light, 5k grease. I did bench test prior to placing the car on the track and I didnt see the center shock getting hung up, so by doing that I was hoping I have already eliminated the rear hop.

Once the car was on the track, the car felt more stable. It didn't feel like it was on the edge of traction rolling. I was very happy and started to push the car to its limit when suddenly I noticed that the rear was still hopping but not by much, just a little on the same corners. I brought my car back to the pit and spent few minutes analyzing what it was that's making the rear end of the car to hop like that. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find the answer on why however, I was able to eliminate the rear hop by using one disc (DDS) on top of the damper plate and applying 20 wt oil.

The rear hop was gone but then, my car started to push around the corners. It was very easy to drive but it wasnt fast at all. In need for a faster car infield, I desided to wipe out the oil and ran it dry. The results of running the DDS dry was great! No more hopping rearend and still no traction roll. I was not on the edge and I can push the car in and out of the corner. With that setup the car was very well capable of working in 10.7 fast lap but not 10.6. I wanted more and with the available time that I had last night, I started to play around with the spring tention by preloading both sides. I moved it by about .5mm, no gap on the spring and my car's driving characteristic had changed drastically! On-power, my rear end can come loose and whips around the corner and this is consistently (rear steering) and only when I want to. That's the key! I was able to get to the 10.6's few times last night... After that, I wanted to remove the DDS but soemthing was telling me that it'll bring back bad memories. lol Instead of removing the disc, I raised the "L" arm of the motor pod. This is to not put too much spring tension on the top disc. Also by moving this up, you want to raise up the mounting position on that side shocks.

notice the spacer under the side damper (shocks). You want to shim it some more if you raise the L-arm on the motor pod.

***I know drivers with a lot of experience in r/c will start telling me about roll center etc... but let me tell you, I don't know what roll center is. I read the definition online and someone explained it to me and no, I still dont understand what the heck that thing is and to not confuse newbies, I will explain it to you the way I see/feel how my car is acting on the track. Please see below.*** 

By lifting the L-arm on the motor pod, you are now putting less pressure on the disc (keep in mind that I am not running the bottom disc). This is the disc that pushes on the damper plate. With the disc rubbing against the damper plate, it is now helping the rear end to minimize, if not eliminate those hops. The more pressure on the disc to the damper plate the less steering and no rear hop. The lighter the tension, the more steering you get.  *by no mean this is an explanation of roll center. I think mini-z drivers over think this r/c scale... what the newbs need to know and get familiar with is the Center Gravity. The higher the weight, the more the car will lean/roll and lower the weight, the less it'll roll. Fine tune from what works on the track condition/layout.*  I want less pressure on the spring just because I want to fully utilized my $30 Tri Damper Shock and I want those two side shocks to work full time and have the DDS working part time. By doing so, my car now has zero traction roll, zero rear hop and my chicane speed is insane! I can catch most of the drivers inside this chicane.

That's what I have on my TDS so far. I know there's a lot more I can do but for now, this is what I have... Keep checking this page for updates and expect to see this on my mod car for sure! :P

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04.04.2010 Part 3:

Here we go again. Usually I would do blogs & tuts during weekdays but since I have down time (while cycling my cells) I'll give an update on how this TDS performed on last nights race. Currently, we have the RCX layout. Not 100% replica but about 90%. The straight away is long, I believe its about 24 tiles and the infield is the same with 2 tiles on almost every corners. During practice, my car is capable of doing 10.6's with the handout RCX motor (PN70). I know my car is not fast but I dont think its the motor. I think its the battery that I'm running that needed to be cycled since it has been sitting for a week. During last nights Qual and Main, the car was getting 10.7-10.8 very consistently and a fast lap of 10.59!!! That would be my fastest with this car and I was able to hit this time during my second, 4 min main with the same battery pack! I was able to hit that time by running on the fastest line! This is the reason why I'm cycling my cells because I dont want to touch anthing on the car right now. I want see if I can improve my time by having a better pack. I think it will... :)

Last night's race wasnt easy at all. Usually, the top 3 is on the same lap and last night Ryan Sagisi was on me for a good 6 mins on a 8 mins main. He was driving very consistent with almost one to none mistake. I can see my car pull away lap every lap but not by much. It seems that I was only pulling away by about 3-5" every lap for about 4-6 mins. It was that tight. My only advantage was the chicane part of the track. With the new TDS, I can throw my car anywhere and it'll just hook on that turn and it'll do this consistently and smoothly. The best part of it is that I only had to apply grease before the race even started and didnt have to reapply. Unlike the DDS, I had to clean the damper and reapply oil every heat/main. With the TDS, I was just brushing off the dust on the car and chill...  The TDS was very consistent all throughout the night.

My Mod car finally came in!!! During RCX race, my mod car was not so mod. :) I had stock fets, brand new PN35 not broken in and stock frontend. As a matter of fact, I dont have a mod car.  Both my cars are built for stock racing, one for testing and one for race but after seeing how fast these guys were running in their mod cars, I knew I needed to built a "real" mod car. It took two weeks to have someone hook me up with FET work since I dont trust myself fetting it and about a week to receive my "real" mod motors. All that waiting was paid off after putting my car on the track. 

Yesterday, I put my car together almost everything on it is new! Hit the track and adjusted the setting on both tx/ICS and it's hooked up! The car was consistently working on 10.1-10.3 with a fastest lap of 10.0. This is what I always look for. About .20-.30 sec difference from my fast lap. I hate to see 10.0 fast lap and then my consistency stuck at 10.5-10.8, that's just something I am not looking for and if this happens, I know something is wrong with the car. With my current setup, my car is easily doing 10.3, almost automatic! It's just that good and thank you to that new TDS. This is definitely designed for mod cars as you are now able to fine tune the rear lateral supension, individually! One side of my shock is tigher than the other..  Ok, I will have to stop talking about my mod before I get carried away. hehe...

After working on the Tri-Damper System for 3 days, it is now very easy to put one together. Even others that hasnt put one together can do it in less than 30 mins.  Just copy the setup on a car that works, and fine tune from there. No more chasing set ups! Well I guess this is it for this TDS, I hope this helps others with their new rear end suspension.

FYI... The TDS system will give you more steering without having you car to roll or lean around the corners as much as it would on a DDS. It is exactly like a real race car where the suspension is stiff but has a lot of corner speed on-power, It runs flat but fast. I want to say, it's like an AWD but not as wild.  If you guys try this part, make sure to try the kit without adding the disc on the damper plate. After few runs, try the damper disc installed and see how you like it.